Today I'm talking with Joe Lamp'l (aka Joe Gardener) of Growing A Greener World about his love for gardening, where it started, and the unexpected fame that's come with it. You can also follow him on Facebook.
00:00
This is Mary Lewis at A Tiny Homestead, the podcast comprised entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, share it with a friend, or leave a comment. Thank you. Today I'm talking with Joe Lamp'l, aka Joe Gardner of Growing Greener World. Good afternoon, Joe. How are you? I'm great. Good afternoon to you. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. You have no idea how tickled I am.
00:29
said yes. Tell me about yourself because you're pretty famous, but not everybody knows your story. This is true and I feel like I've told it a few times and I think maybe by now more people have heard it and the word's getting out I guess, but I love my story because I remember it as though it were yesterday. I grew up in Miami, Florida and I was one of four boys in the family. That was it, just four boys but...
00:57
Uh, in the pecking order, I was last, you know, I was eight years old when I was out with my dad on the weekends. He had his weekday job, his nine to five weekday job, although I know he worked more than that, but on the weekends he did his guard work, you know, his typical mowing the grass and edging the driveway and trimming the bushes. And because I was only eight years old and my next oldest brother was 13, he wasn't hanging out with me. He was hanging out with his buddies, which was fine because my dad was my buddy and I had them all to myself for the weekend.
01:26
And I love that. So I would follow him around and just tag along and do anything he needed me to do. But on this one day, when he finished up on this Saturday, he went inside and I still had plenty of energy. So I'm out running around and I, I hit a branch on a plant he had just got through pruning earlier that day and I broke it. All right. I basically broke it and I didn't want to get in trouble, but I wouldn't have. My dad was a very kind, sweet man.
01:54
But I didn't want to disappoint him. Maybe that's the thing. So I took the branch and I stuck it. I shoved it in the ground basically right next to the base of the plant, covered it up with soil. Although I probably would have called it dirt at that point. And, um, you know, went about my business and time went on and I forgot about it until I came upon it again, weeks and weeks later. And when I did, it reminded me that that's the, that's the plant that I broke the branch on, but I couldn't find.
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I couldn't figure out which was the broken branch because they all looked the same. They were all green and growing. And I'm like, wait a minute, I know this is the plant. So I, um, I isolated it down to the one that I actually broke and I looked at it and it was a little less vigorous than the others, but it was growing in that. And that just surprised me. So, because I had no idea that it was going to live to begin with. And the fact that it was sprouting new leaves and forming new roots. Literally blew my mind. I just couldn't understand how that was happening. I didn't know anything about.
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gardening at that time, but I needed to know more because that was the coolest thing ever to me at the moment. Still is. And, um, from that, that very moment was when I decided I'm hooked on this. I love this. I need to know more. And I started propagating. Again, I didn't know that word then, but I started, you know, making more cuttings and sticking stuff in pots and growing seeds. And I started a garden, a few gardens, actually a rose garden and a vegetable garden and fruit trees and daylilies and you name it.
03:20
So that was it eight years old. And, uh, honestly, I haven't slowed down one second of my interest in my quest to learn more and my love and enthusiasm for gardening and all that it has to offer. So you were eight and the magic of nature kicked you in the head is what happened. You know, it did. It kicked me in the head for, for, for garden. You know, I was.
03:46
Way earlier than that, I'm sure I was fascinated with nature. I was just in awe of being outside and hearing and seeing the birds and the trees and the wind and you know, back then, well, still, I mean, I was in the hurricane region and I know we had big storms coming through when I was little and all of that just amazed me. But then the, the gardening side really is what totally captivated me. Specifically, it was the gardening. Do you remember what the shrub was by chance?
04:15
Kind of, I do. I picture it as a privet. Basically your standard hedge shrub, ubiquitous everywhere. And I really feel like it was a privet. Okay. Just wondering, cause I don't know if you knew at eight years old, what, what the plant itself was. I, you know, I learned a lot of those plants. Uh, but I don't know that I ever really specifically named that one, but I, now that I
04:41
I've thought about it. I think about what that was and I'm pretty sure that it was a privet. Okay. Cool. Um, so I have one big overriding question for you. Most people, when they find that thing that kicks them in the head, it's a hobby, but it sounds like you took something that could have turned into a hobby and made it into your life's work and a business. So, so what do you do?
05:11
outside of gardening because most people garden to get away from the things that they do all the time. This is so true. And Dino Mary that um...
05:24
I'm not one of those people. I just, I've said this a lot and I mean it when I say it, but I, I say this, I say, I love gardening more than yesterday and tomorrow I'm going to love it more than today. And I really feel that way because, because, um, in my, I was going to say in my free time and I started thinking how much free time do I really have, but I make it, I make it because I get up really early and you know what I do is I, I
05:50
I do work, I do work while it's dark. I get up while it's dark and I work for a couple hours. And then as it's light, I go outside and I go in the garden and I, or I prune, or I do something gardening or horticulturally related and my vegetable garden or my native landscape beds, but I am outside. And the happiest I'm going to be that day is when I'm gardening and, um, it's, it is totally a passionate hobby. But for me, I think I have a personality that
06:21
or whatever it is that excites me, I tend to go deep on it. And so, um, you know, it is a hobby, but it's, it's, and it's, of course, it's become my profession, but even if it wasn't my profession, I would be. As involved with gardening as I am now, you know, I just, I, I, it feeds, it scratches every itch I have. It feeds my intellectual needs. It, it helps me with my physical needs.
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and desires and my curiosity for knowledge and science and understanding and the fact that I can't know it all or never will know it all, but I want to learn more every day and I do through gardening and just the wonder of it all. And it just, it blows my mind every day. Every day is more exciting and fascinating to me. And that's the other thing about it. It's never ever boring and I can never control it. I think that's the other thing that keeps me.
07:18
so engaged is that as a sort of a control freak, I'm-
07:25
I am very attracted to the fact that I can't control this. So it really challenges me to keep going and try to figure these challenges out that come up every day. So what you're telling me is heaven is going to be a terrible disappointment to you when you pass over because you've been living it since you were eight. I feel like I have, but I think, you know, heaven promises to be greater than we can ever imagine. And if, and if it is. Then.
07:56
It really is going to be unbelievable because I feel like I am living living that kind of life now. Yeah. I, okay. Did you, did you end up going to college for classes in gardening, horticulture, whatever? Yeah. I've had, I've had academic training for years through college and beyond. And, and, and actually at, this is an interesting story when, um, I was going into college.
08:24
You know, my mother was a really excellent, passionate English teacher, high school English teacher. And, you know, we were talking about college plans. I said, well, you know, I really want to go study horticulture. And, you know, in her wise way, she said, you know, that's great. You should, you, I can encourage that, but let me offer a suggestion that you consider as well. And that is consider getting a business degree also, because if you could marry those two coming out of school.
08:53
Your opportunities will be exponentially greater and you can apply, you know, if you end up going full time into horticulture, you can apply your business skills that you wouldn't have had if you didn't study it in college and, and really accelerate your career in horticulture. And I thought, huh, that really, she presented a good case, very compelling. So she sold me on that. So that's what I did. And when I was coming out of school, you know, you're graduating, you're getting recruited and there weren't a lot of horticulture.
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recruits knocking on the door, but there were a lot of, um, business opportunities or, or, or several attractive business opportunities. And that's what I ended up doing simply because it made, it seemed to make the most sense and it offered the best money. And, uh, I took that, but I knew when I did, it really wasn't what I wanted to do. But I did it for a year and a half or so. And then, well, I actually had a suit and tie job for a few years, but I was waiting for that moment.
09:51
When the whatever opportunity was going to happen, I knew it would happen. I didn't know what it was going to be or when it would happen, but I was patient. And, you know, I'm sitting in my very nice office and my suit and tie looking out the window of the 23rd floor of a downtown office building, looking down on a cold winter day at the landscapers down in the cold, wet sleet rain, uh, planning pansies or something, and I'm thinking, I want to do that.
10:20
I had a really good job. I'm like, why don't want to be down there doing that instead of this. Cush job I've got up here, but I did, but I didn't take, you know, I didn't do that because I couldn't replace my standard of living at that point, but then this opportunity came on, which I, you know, eventually I knew something would, and it did, and that was my opportunity to host a television series on the DIY network. And that ended up being a three year television, national television hosting job, teaching people how to grow food. So that was how I ended up.
10:49
back in horticulture full time. And that was in 2002. And so here I've been ever since just taking that business knowledge. Thank you, mom. And building a brand and a business around and several brands at this point and three television hosting jobs and other stuff. Um, thanks to the combination of the two. It's amazing how smart moms can be. I am a mom of four. Yeah.
11:18
My youngest still lives at home with us. He's 22. And I've been, I freelance right now and then. I don't make any money at it. I'm not determined or disciplined enough to do it all the time. But all of my kids are pretty good writers. And youngest decided to write some fan fiction for fun, like two weeks ago. And he's okay.
11:44
You know, he needs a little help with the grammar and punctuation, but he knows how to string a story. Yeah. And he posted it on some, I don't know, forum or, or platform, whatever online. And he came down three days later for his room, all smiles. And he said, my story is, is like on the featured page of the platform. That, that, that, that he was just tickled pink. Yeah. And I said, see, I said, I told you just start something.
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do something creative and something will happen. And he said, you know, sometimes you're really smart. And I just laughed. So to quote my son, sometimes moms are really smart and sometimes dads are really smart and we need them. That too, yeah, that too. So I have a question about the growing arena world stint that you did for the three years. And it was growing arena world then, right? Well, that was Fresh from the Garden, the first series.
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was fresh from the garden on the DIY network. And that was supposed to only be one year and 26 episodes, but the, the show was more successful than I think they even imagined because they ended up turning it into a three year series and 52 episodes during the first year. They said we want to renew it to three years and 52 episodes. Okay. So my question about that is when you walk into that kind of situation where it's a, a TV show on a.
13:13
on a cable network, that's what it was at the time, I assume. Is that weird? Like, like, were you, were you comfortable doing the thing while all these cameras and things were around, or do you have to like settle into that? That's a good question. You know, I'll take it back a few weeks or months before that, because, you know, they didn't call me out of the blue and say, we want you to host this show. It was.
13:40
We're looking for a host for this show and this is who we're looking for. And I was sent the email from that national email blast that went to garden writers and garden media people. And one of those people forwarded me that email and said, Joe, they're looking for you, they just don't know you yet, but they are describing you. You need to contact the producer and get an interview. And so I did.
14:07
I'm going to make this shorter than in story really is. I did and I got a, I got a, um, I had lunch, I had lunch with the producer and it was very awkward but, um, he called, you know, he's just never, I couldn't read them and I'm good at reading people. I could not read this guy. And at the end of the lunch, he basically said, well, you know, we'll let you know if we're interested. I'm going to talk to my executive producer about you. And if she's interested, we're going to call you back and do a screen test. And I got a call back to do a screen test. So
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The appointed date was set up and they told me where to be. And I showed up and there were the camera trucks and the people and the audio and all that stuff. And he's there and you know, he's kind of a, in a nice way, he's kind of a cold fish because he is not Mr. Personality. He's just there all business. And, and I had a script that I was sent and I was supposed to memorize that and do these opening a roles, these hosts, like, you know, the intro to the show. As if I'm doing it for real on camera to the, to the viewers. Yeah. And, um, so I'd never been on TV before.
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I watched a lot of gardening shows, so I had a sense of how that goes, but never doing it to a camera, but I didn't feel, I did not feel weird about that because to me that camera was just a round piece of glass and I was talking about stuff that I knew a lot about. And I was very comfortable with it because when I would watch those shows on HGTV, I knew all the stuff they were talking about. And I had no doubt to think that I couldn't communicate that as well.
15:31
So that's kind of the attitude, not a co*cky attitude, just a confident attitude. And so the weird thing was he had me do that scene over and over and over again with zero feedback. And I thought that was weird because I couldn't tell if he liked what I was doing or he wanted to see if I could do it better or there was no coaching, no, okay, now try it this way, none of that. And then he threw a curve ball at me and had me do another like.
15:59
doing a soil test, teaching people how to do a soil test on the fly, unscripted, didn't know that was coming, but I think they wanted to see if I really knew what I was talking about. And I, and I think I did it, you know, but he had me do it over and over and over again. But anyway, long story short, I'm wrapping this up. They, they had their big meeting up at HGTV, uh, reviewing all the candidates and, um, they narrowed it down to a male and a female and they, they said, we need, we'll get back to you in a week and whichever person, whichever gender they're going with is going to get the role.
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You're the male that they like and there's a female they're looking at. But a week later, they called me and said, you're the guy. And so a week after that, I'm on set for the first time in my life, actually doing episode one on this series. It turned into very successful 52 episode series. And to your question to finalize the answer, um, I didn't feel weird at all. I just felt like I was in my element because I was out in a, at that time it was open field where we were going to build our garden that was going to become the set, but the first show is how to build the garden.
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And I knew how to do that. And I'm just talking to the camera and yes, there was a crew there and I'm wearing jeans and a golf shirt, basically a polo shirt versus a suit and tie, which was really cool. I really love that part. And, um, you know, we just went on from there for 52, you know, we, uh, 52 episodes, which is every day, every week for three years, pretty much other than the weekends. Wow. What a great story. Um, so then, then growing up in your world happened. And.
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Now growing a greener world is on YouTube. It's not tabling or whatever they call it. Now. Yes. Yeah. Well, it was national. It was over the air national PBS. So, yeah. Okay. So does that mean that you're now it, you're the producer, you're the director, you're, you're the one who does the YouTube episodes? Well, um, so what we did was we did.
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12 years, 12 seasons of episodes for Growing a Greener World. And all of those were on PBS nationally across the country. And when COVID hit, we were, you know, we're set up for the next season and we were ready to go and we had our whole lineup ready. Just like we always had, and we always went across the country to tell stories. And I was really looking forward to it. Albeit, you know, 12 years in a row of a lot of intensive television production. And I was the executive creator, executive producer.
18:24
And host. So that's a lot of hats and there's a lot of pressure involved in all of those details, even though I had a team, it was a small team and we had to raise all our own funding for that. So every year, you know, you're trying to make sure you've got enough money to do pay all these people and do what you need to do to buy your plane tickets and hotels and rental cars and food and all of that. And, um, at the end of this 2022 second year COVID or whatever, I, I had gotten so
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attracted to staying home and not being on a plane every week that I said, you know, I think we're going to back off on production and just do more, less, less often, do episodes less often and start putting these on YouTube. Because people have been asking for a long time if we would be doing that with all of our episodes. We've done it with some, but we hadn't done it with all. And we started, during COVID, we started thinking about, you know, what's the...
19:22
What's our next step? What is the future of growing a greener world? How are we going to reach the people that we really are trying to reach? Which, which is honestly, it's the younger up and coming future gardeners because they are our future. They're they're who we need to be carrying the torch into the future. And on PBS, we're not reaching those people there. They're not watching plug-in television. It's on a particular schedule through the TV set, you know, they're watching it on their phones and, you know,
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could unconnect a device and anytime, anywhere online. And, and we knew that we really needed to make some drastic changes. So that's when we decided that going forward, we were going to not do our episodes exclusively for public television or even at all, and we were going to direct all our energy towards making sure that all of our episodes first and foremost were converted and uploaded into YouTube. So.
20:20
Now every episode we've ever done over 12 years is on YouTube now. And it took two years to make that happen. I thought it would happen a lot faster, but there's a lot of technical things and music rights that have to get converted and approved. And it's just a big process. So anyway, it's finally done as of just a few weeks ago, maybe last week. And, um, that's, that's where we're leaving it because so many more people are able to watch it now. Everybody that used to watch it on television can still watch it.
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They just need to change the way they watch it and they can watch it on their television and by just, you know, Casting it from their phone or their device onto the television if they want to. But anyway, we feel like that's the best move we can make to have our message reach the most people that we really feel need to see our show that haven't been or haven't been made aware of it. I've never seen it, but need to see it. So.
21:16
I don't know if I answered your question and all of that, but, um, yes, you did. Thank you. That was perfect. Okay. So I don't, I don't want to like get bogged down in all the details of, of TV versus YouTube versus podcast versus whatever the, the mechanism is to getting what you're doing out in the world. But I do want to say that I feel like you are growing a garden in the world too. To get all of this out to people.
21:46
And that's impressive. I also want to say that I am in my mid-50s and I remember having to get up from the chair or the couch or the floor when I used to sit on the braided rug in my living room, my parents' house, and change the channel on the TV. I remember having to go to the actual little box that you used to get for cable and slide the little doohickey across to get to the channel you wanted to get to.
22:15
And now with our TV, all I have to do is hit the app on the button on the TV remote. And I have YouTube on my TV. Yeah. So I'm 54. I'll be 55 in November. And the amount of technological advances that have been made in just my lifetime, scares me to death and impresses the hell out of me. Right. So the fact that you went from.
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PBS to, or not PBS from, from DIY or HDTV or whatever it was to PBS to YouTube now. It's, it's just mind boggling, but it's wonderful. I think so. The accessibility is really what matters to me and understanding who your audience or your perspective audience, your dream audience is you've, you've got to, in my
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seat, I've got to think about how am I going to reach them? What's the best way for me to, to meet them where they are. It's more likely that for them to buy my show, I need to come to them rather than hoping they come to me. And, and so that's what we did. And fortunately, along with my team, who's very talented in the areas I am weak. Um, it works, you know, and while we're doing all that, you know, we started creating online courses and we've had this podcast, my podcast going for, I think eight years now.
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And, you know, all kinds of, all kinds of digital content has been created thanks to the ease of being able to do that to, to all the smart people out there that have facilitated that, you know, um, it's amazing. And so all I really wanted to do to dumb it down, all I really want to do is teach people how to garden organically and. However I can do that wherever I can do that. I want to do that. And so I think I've.
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done well in all the platforms I've been able to get out there around the world to reach, you know, to reach those people or some of them anyway. Well, the ones who want to know. Yes, exactly. Um, okay. So it is springtime in the United States. And the reason I say United States is that I just talked to a lady in Australia, um, last week, week before last week, and they're rolling in a winter time right now, which is weird. And.
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When I talked to her, it was in the evening here and it was the next day in the morning for her. So that was really fun and interesting to do. But we're in springtime and thank God we're in springtime because this winter was so dumb. This winter was terrible. I'm in Minnesota. We basically got a foot of snow and it was sort of cold. And that's not Minnesota winter. So I'm very happy to be back into springtime and we're having our very first
25:07
extended, gentle, moderate spring we've had in years. So I'm very, very excited. And my heart is big and I have peonies blooming right now. They're my favorite flower on earth. So I'm all lit up because it's spring time. Now we have been growing flowers in a garden, a produce garden for about 20 years, maybe a little more.
25:33
And so we know how to grow things and we know how to not put bad things in our garden and not put herbicides and pesticides and things on plants that we're going to eat the produce from because that's not a good plan for at least, at least not the ones that are manmade. So for those who are just learning about growing a flower plant or a produce plant.
26:01
What would you say are the first three things that someone who's never done it before needs to learn needs to do? Set the plan up for success. So there you'll hear the same a lot for the, those that I'm speaking to that this applies, put the right plan in the right place. So if it's a plant that's a sun lover, you need to put it in a place that it has the most sun it can get, because that's when it's going to thrive, assuming that you also focus on the soil. So if you can really take your energy and your efforts and your money.
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and create really good soil with compost and, you know, nice, rich, dark growing environment. And then put the plants that do well in sun in full sun with that kind of soil or, you know, shade lovers in that kind of soil and shady environment. Those are the two most important things that you can do because the plants have the DNA that they need to thrive on their own. You know, obviously you look out at nature and it's amazing what happens without anything.
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without us having to do anything about it. But if we do those two things and then not be afraid to make mistakes. So I guess the third thing would be just do those, just do those first two things and then see what happens and learn from whatever happens. If you're successful, repeat the process, but if it doesn't work out to your expectations, your job is to understand why.
27:28
And as you learn why it didn't go that way that you thought it would, or it was supposed to, that's when you start getting better and more confident. So embellish or relish the mistakes. And I call them learning opportunities. I don't even really call them mistakes because the only way you get better or become better is by, um, allowing those mistakes to happen and then figuring out why they happen.
27:56
Yeah. I've referred to mistakes as educational opportunity. Absolutely. That's what they are. Yeah. Cause things are going to go wrong in your life. That's how we learn. So, so yeah, try just, just try. If you want to do something, learn how to do it from somebody who knows how to do it and then try it. Yeah. And then the other thing is because we'll never be in full control of anything outside, um, even when you do all the right things.
28:26
You'll still get curve balls thrown at you and that's okay too. And I think that keeps it extra exciting and why it's never boring. And it just allows you to broaden your skills so that you are ready for those variations in the growing situation of the de jour, you know, or of the season. And, uh, and you're able to adapt. And that's when you, that's when the confidence really starts to come into it and you're not intimidated anymore. And you know,
28:55
If the frost is threatening and your plants are outside and you haven't really prepared for that, you're not freaking out anymore. And things like that, that happen only over time and experience and understanding the potential consequences or the fact that a lot of times plants are partier than we give them credit for. Yes, yes, they are. We had a terrible tail storm back when we lived at our, our small house on our small lot.
29:24
10, 15 years ago. And we had a rhubarb patch that was at least a hundred years old. My neighbor, my next door neighbor, was too credit shy of a horticulture degree. And part of the reason she didn't finish is because a lot of the men in her classes told her that women didn't do well in horticulture.
29:49
And so she just didn't finish. And I feel so bad that she never finished her degree, but it doesn't matter. She knew so many things. I love her. She told me so many things when we were learning to garden and she came over and wanted some of the rhubarb roots. And I said, um, I don't know anything about splitting rhubarb. And she said, that's okay. I do. And she, she watched as my husband dug some of the plants out and she said, do not.
30:17
mess with this patch, do not. Don't kill it." And my husband said, well, I don't want to kill it. And she said, don't do anything. Just let it be. Like splitting it is fine, but don't do anything. It has been here for at least a hundred years. He said, how do you know? And she said from the roots. She said, she told me why, but I can't remember now, but she was convinced that this patch had been there forever. And the whole point of talking about the rhubarb is we had a terrible
30:46
and we had almost golf ball size hail. And I was so afraid that it was gonna just ruin the rhubarb. I don't know why, but I was afraid it was gonna kill it. Rhubarb is really hardy and the leaves are huge and the hail basically bounced off the leaves. Wow. There were maybe a couple of little holes in the leaves but I was just like, damn, that's amazing.
31:14
So yeah, plants are really hardy. I would not like a hailstorm right now because we have tomato seedlings and cucumber seedlings just in the garden for a week and they're so, and they will get healed. But once the plants are bigger, they're pretty hardy. So I agree with you and you're an expert and I'm not, so there we go. So I found out about you.
31:42
when I think Growing a Greener World started. I don't think I ever saw the other show. Yeah. And it's just, it's tickling me to no end that I am talking with you because I remember watching Growing a Greener World and going, that is fantastic. We're gonna keep watching this guy because we know nothing about gardening and he knows all kinds of things. And watching your show actually really helped us to learn how to grow a garden. And thank you so much. Appreciate it.
32:12
You're welcome. It, it's an honor, you know, um, and I don't know if you were through there or not, I didn't want to stop you before you finished. Go ahead. Okay. Well, it just, um, you know, it has been an honor. I'm not, I'll tell you this, you know, there was a, there was another television series I hosted for three years between, or after fresh from the garden before growing a greener world and, and actually it was during that middle series where I decided, you know, I need to, I need to stop and
32:41
change directions on how I'm presenting myself to the world. Because, you know, when you're in a position in front of a national television camera that actually has a further reach than that in many cases, um, I need to, I need to use my time to what I think is the best use of it for, you know, man, for what I wanted to do with my life. And that was to, you know, as I told you earlier, teach people how to guard them, but do it with an environmentally responsible approach, you know, not
33:11
I wanted them to understand the bigger picture, you know, the, the ripple effect or the unintended consequences of doing things with, you know, bad inputs and so forth. So in that middle series where I was the host traveling the country, touring public gardens and talking to the head horticulturalist and basically just a travelogue show that happened to be in a public garden. And we did that for, you know, three years shows still on, but I left because it, I felt like it was.
33:40
kind of Groundhog Day. I felt like I was doing the same thing over and over. It just was a different location every time. But I did a hundred shows or so with that. But then I left because I said...
33:51
If I'm going to stay in TV, I need to create a show because the show that I have in mind doesn't exist right now. There's nobody teaching people how to garden and do it with an environmentally responsible approach and tell it through their stories and their eyes and their experience and go there to wherever they are and, and give them the opportunity to tell the story and let me just ask the questions and set them up so we can hear their story. And so that's how growing a greener world evolved.
34:19
Quickly. I mean, that's how I envisioned it. And that's why we shot the pilot and that's how it became the show that it, the series that it's become. Um, and now I can't remember why I was telling you that. I do the same thing all the time. Yeah. Um, but I, I just, I just, I thought, I felt like, you know, there was a lot of, uh, and, and excessive amount of makeover shows by then.
34:44
You know, the good gardening shows on HGTV were being done away with at that time, which is sad, but it was the truth. And I thought, well, if I'm going to be one of the few gardening shows on television these days in the U S then I want to, I want to tell it in a way that I feel is very important for people to learn about that no one was telling them. And it was my chance on a national platform to do that. And thanks to underwriting support, like through Subaru and others, um, you know, we were able to keep going. And.
35:14
Anyway, I think what I was, where I was going with that was it's just, you know, it is exhausting when you are traveling all the time and you're doing it for year after year after year, and then 12 years in, it's like, you know, it's the only thing we could really, with my company, the only, it sucked the most amount of time out of my, my business life, you know? And, um, there were other things I wanted to do and hadn't been able to do while I was wearing all those hats with growing a greener world, you know?
35:43
And, um, so when COVID hit and we were not able to travel and we started thinking about the future of growing a greener world, that's when it really made sense to, to back off on, on all these additional new episodes, take what we had, put it out there for the world to see on YouTube and continue to teach people how to garden through the various platforms that we were doing, but we would then be able to focus more on those other areas that we had not yet been able to delve into.
36:13
to the depth that we wanted. And now we've been able to do that. So I feel like we haven't undone anything and we've only layered on top of that with additional depth of information to additional audiences, which is good. Yeah, and reach. Your reach is so much bigger now. Yeah. So, fantastic. So,
36:38
I gotta know because when I started my podcast back in the last week of August, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know if it was going to go anywhere. I didn't know if I could do it. And it's now May, it's almost June. Yeah, almost a year for you. Of 2024. And I'm telling you, I am obsessed with this thing that I'm doing.
37:05
And my friend actually told me that I keep her company on her drive to work in the morning, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, because she listens to the podcast. It was so unnerving to me because I know that I'm doing this, but I forget that people actually listen to it, who I know that I know them and they listen to it. So. Your whole life has been.
37:33
growing this thing that you're doing. Did you expect it to become what it's become? And is it, I don't know, is it a problem for you because you're well known? I mean, do you, are you uncomfortable being out in the world?
37:54
Great question. So when you asked me the first part of that question, um, you know, did I know it was going to get this big and all of that and, and no, I did not, nor did I ever intend for it to get this big. Um, you know, I, I loved. So my first real exposure into the. Business end of horticulture was when I was hosting fresh from the garden. So we talked about that and it started in 2002, but again, marrying that business background.
38:23
And realizing I loved what I was doing. I wanted to make sure that I put in place. Feel safe ways to keep it going. And so that's when we branded Joe Gardner and we created the website and started doing the national speaking circuit and did my first couple of books. And, you know, it was interesting how kind of quickly that all started, but. All the while I never. Uh,
38:52
I thought about how big can we get? You know, all I wanted to do, as I told you, was just teach people how to garden. And fortunately, I started off with a really nice platform. You know, DIY had 40 million subscribers at the time, so that wasn't a bad start. But that wasn't, it was never on my list of things I wanted to check off as I started my career or as I envisioned it five, 10, 15, 20 years later. And over time,
39:21
You know, it has grown and grown and grown on it, you know, just by nature of being in this business this long, being consistent with it, meeting new people and making these connections. And my business has grown. My team has grown.
39:40
But to the second part of your question, does it ever get uncomfortable? It doesn't get uncomfortable, but what a lot of people don't know about me is I'm quite the introvert, you know? And like, I'm in a public life, you know? And so to me, the thing that is sort of, I don't wanna say intruded, I don't think that's the right word, but where I feel like guilty if I'm not,
40:09
sharing enough on social media or if I'm not posting every day, if I'm not taking videos of my daughter's birthday parties or my wife's, you know, our anniversary, I don't know. I just, that's not me. And I, and I, sometimes I feel like I should be doing that because that's the norm these days. That's what everybody's doing, but that doesn't, that doesn't interest me. I, I'm, you know, I'm an open person, but I'm also, you know, I have a private life too, and, and I like.
40:40
that introvert side of me. So it's, um, it's not a struggle. It's just something I reckon reconcile all the time in that I'm in an interesting situation that has a significant public persona to somebody who is happiest on a Friday night sitting home, you know, watching Netflix or reading a book. No. So, yeah. And, and that's kind of what I was trying to get at is you are, you are pretty well known. And.
41:09
Are you, I don't know what stores you shop at, but I mean, if you were going to go to Walmart, can you go to Walmart and be comfortable walking through and picking up what you need and leaving? I can. And, you know, I appreciate when people, I can tell, you know, a few times when somebody, you know that they recognize you, but they're not coming up to you and everything.
41:39
If they did, that's fine. If they don't, that's fine. But you know, when the people do come up, I love that. I love to meet people. I really do. I always considered an honor when they are, you know, tickled to run into me and introduce themselves and say, hi, I don't, I never take that for granted. I'm, I'm always honored and flattered. And, um, you know, we're all doing this, we're all in this together. And if I'm somebody that they listen to or watch or spend time with, then I
42:09
I feel like I owe it to them at the least to recognize that and be grateful for that. But I do not, one thing I will say, I'm thankful that I do not have any kind of ego that makes me feel, makes me think that I have anything over anybody else. I feel like we're all equal and we're all in this together and that's the way it should be. And so...
42:36
Yeah, I get recognized, but you know, more often than not, it's, it's as if I can walk into Walmart like anybody else and walk out and it's just, you know, just another day. Okay. I was, I was just curious because I am terribly shy, which is why I do a podcast, not a video thing. And, uh, I can't imagine being in your shoes or anyone else's shoes where you are.
43:04
recognizable to the general public. I don't want to be that ever. And if I am, it'll play out the way it plays out, but it's just not something I aspire to. And I also get really anxious when I talk to people like you or Joel Salatin, who I interviewed like a month ago. And I was so nervous to interview him because he's, he's
43:31
famous in quotation marks and he is, he's a big deal in this homesteading gardening world. Yes. And I had to remind myself 20 times the day that I was going to interview him that he gets up in the morning and he drinks his beverage of choice and he eats breakfast and he puts on his pants one leg at a time, just like everybody else does. I was shaking when I sat down to interview him.
44:00
And my husband said to me last night, he said, so you're talking to Joe Lamp'l tomorrow evening? And I said, yes. And he said, are you as nervous as you were as the Joel Salatin thing? And I'm like, no, I said, because Joel was super nice and gracious and kind and was willing to entertain my questions. I said, I think I'm over the, the scared to death part. Now I'm just excited. Good. So yeah, it's crazy. When you.
44:29
when you start something new, and then you find out that you love it, and then you find out that you get to interview someone that you're really curious about, there is this bubble of excitement that is just crazy. So I've been living in a bubble of crazy excitement every time I get to talk to someone who I'm really curious about, and it doesn't matter if it's you,
44:58
or Joel at your levels of, of whatever it is you're doing. Or if it's the person that just started a cottage food business in the town over who is so excited to be able to talk about what they love. Yes. This is true. So I think, I think I'm just as excited about what I'm doing at this stage in my life, as you were at eight years old to realize that that piece of the plant grew. That's fantastic. And why shouldn't you be really, I mean, why?
45:27
Why should it be at eight years old for me more exciting than you with this new venture for you at whatever age that is. And you know, you're, you are not old. You got a lot of years ahead of you. So why, why not embrace that and have fun with it and take it where it goes. I keep calling it my midlife crisis, my late midlife crisis. Call it what you want. It is what it is, but it's a great medium to meet a lot of people.
45:57
have great conversations and have people find you and listen to you and become fans of your show and of you and look to you for those conversations and that information and you know, the, the thing that I love about audio over video and why I, you know, I'm definitely slowing down on the video. I just.
46:22
I feel like I've been doing it. I will have been doing it for over 20 years. It's like I'm ready to just not be in front of the camera all the time. But I don't know that it'll ever stop with the audio because I feel like the audio is a much more intimate connection with the people that are listening to you. You're literally in their ears, you know? And it's like, they don't have to stop what other thing they're doing, whether that's gardening or driving or whatever. They still get to...
46:52
hear or consume what you have to offer and they can do it for longer. Statistically, the people are much more open to listening for longer than I think they are sitting in one place watching something. And so, um, there's something magical about audio that I think TV or video just is never going to have. I think audio requires a different kind of focus. I know that when I am listening,
47:22
podcasts, I'm very aware of people's tones of voice and inflection. And when they get caught up in something, it comes through in their voice. And I love music and I sing and I just, I love sound. So for me, podcasting is, it's the best way for me to be able to get people's stories out.
47:48
I don't really want to tell my story. I don't think that my story is all that interesting. I want the people that I'm talking to, to tell me their stories so that other people hear them so that the people listening to them can be inspired. There are a lot of great stories out there and plenty of people to tell them. And I think your role and my role as podcasters is to find those stories and ask good questions and just let them go and
48:15
guide the conversation if necessary, but other than that, be prepared, you know, and, and guide it with great questions. And that's, I think that's the secret formula to a great podcast. Yeah, I do too. And I'm just still dumbfounded that I started this and I'm still doing it eight months later. So how did Mary, how did you, how did you, if I can just digress or divert a little bit on that note. Um, so that's not that long ago. And, and you sound great. You, you got this figured out.
48:45
How did you teach yourself how to do this? I talk a lot. I was saying this to someone yesterday. I have had the resets of in-laws in my lifetime because I've been married three times now. Third one's a charm. I'm keeping him. He's amazing. I raised four kids in a very tiny house. So a lot of communication.
49:13
a lot of compromise, a lot of teaching my children how to communicate in a way that wasn't I hate you, I hate you and door slamming. And I don't know, I just, I don't think I taught myself anything. I think that I just really am curious. And I really like talking with people. I do not like being in many people's presence at the same time.
49:43
So I was just like, Hey, the podcast sounds like fun. I need a thing. I'm going to try doing a podcast. Well, there's that side of it, what you just mentioned. And that's a special set. That's, you know, one of the most important parts about the success, but then there's the technical side too, that you have to figure out and not be afraid to, you know, dive into also, and that can be very intimidating for a lot of people. Although I think it's gotten easier than it used to be. It's there's still a lot to, to deal with there. Google.
50:12
Google knows everything. I, honest to God, I, my son and I, I've said this before on the podcast, my son and I were going to do a podcast called Mother and Son Days, S-O-N, S-U-N. He suggested it and I was like, yeah, that'd be really fun. And I said, what is it? And he said, yeah, how we kind of sit around, shoot the sh*t, cause we're always hanging out and talking and doing stuff together. And I said, yeah. He says, like that.
50:42
And I said, okay, we can try. So we recorded two half an hour episodes. They never saw the light of day. We never did anything with them because he said, I don't want to do this. And I said, why? And he said, because it's not spontaneous. And I said, it can't be spontaneous. If we're going to record it, we have to have a topic. We have to have an idea and we need to have something to talk about. I said, it's not the same as.
51:08
As we saw something on the news and started riffing on it right then. So I really enjoyed the recording part of it and the talking part of it and the listening to his ideas part of it, but he didn't want to continue it. So I spent six months trying to figure out how I could do a podcast, but I didn't know what the subject was going to be. Oh, and then we were talking last summer about how hard it is to market.
51:38
a small business because we had started a small business with our gardens and we made lip balms and soaps and stuff and we were selling at the farmers market. And I have a tiny little bit of experience in marketing and PR because I worked for a friend who had a PR company. So my husband and I were talking about it and I said, you know, I said the podcast could be people who are doing what we're doing but they're doing it differently and it could be a way to market them.
52:08
And he said, do that. So that's how it came about in the process. I have learned so many cool secrets and tips and tricks about gardening and about baking and about making things. So I am gaining so much more than I thought that I would. And I'm hoping and really hoping that the people who listen to the podcast are either being inspired or reassured.
52:38
or just entertaining? Well, they are any one or three, all three of those things, because if not, um, they have too many other options and they're not going to keep listening to you if they're not being fed personally from your podcast. So, um, you know, those repeat listeners are gold to you and it's a huge compliment to you that the work you're doing is meaningful to them and everyone that continues to come back and listen to you. So, um,
53:07
You know, embrace that and again, don't take that for granted. I know you won't, but that's with all the options we have today in the time that we've got, which seems to be less and less all the time. And the attention spans are now down in the second single, single digit seconds. In many cases, thanks to tick-tock, you know, we really have to get their attention quickly and, and so good for you that you. Grab this by the book, grab the bull by the horns and figured it out and, and are doing it. Yeah. And.
53:37
The thing I keep coming back to is there are people who are entertained watching cats clean themselves on YouTube. This is way more interesting than that, I think. And I get to talk to people like you, who really have made a life and a living doing something you absolutely love. And you can do it. It's possible to make that happen. And you're living proof of it.
54:06
So, I don't know. I mean, at this point, I'm just rambling because it's been over 45 minutes and I don't know what else to say. But, yeah, there's so much going on in the world right now that is not great. And finding something that you can hang on to that gives you faith that it's okay is really important. And I feel like...
54:35
gardening and homesteading and cooking wings from scratch is an everyday thing that happens that is always going to be good.
54:47
So what you're doing is important. What I'm doing is important. What my friend who has goats is doing is important because nature abhors a vacuum. I read that somewhere at some point. And the world would be just fine without humans on it. Nature would continue to do what it's doing. So basically we're here. I'm not sure why humans are here.
55:17
But nature doesn't really care about us humans. It cares about putting things together to grow. Yeah. I, and I like, uh, what you said a minute ago about, um, you know, there's enough.
55:36
bad news or news and just doesn't have conflict out there right now. And there's just a lot of, um, tension and exposure to things that, you know, we may choose or choose not to be a part of, but I think when we create opportunities, like what you and I are doing, it, it gives those who would rather be fed positive information and not waste their time on the, on the bad stuff.
56:04
the chance to do that. And, you know, I'm one of those people on the, on the listening side, on the content consumption side, who chooses to spend my time listening to, you know, positive gardening podcast or, you know, not necessarily the news of the day, because I mean, these days is it ever good anymore? I don't know, but, um, I can tell you this at the end of the day, I feel much better and more positive and more hopeful.
56:34
When I fill my day with positive energy, which includes podcasts like ours and other good, you know, curated content and cloister that together so that I kind of create the world that I want to spend my time in through the content that other people create that resonates with me. And I think that's what your listeners are doing with your podcast. I certainly hope so. Um,
57:02
I do have one more question for you before I let you go. Okay. You, you have a daughter. Yes. Two. Two daughters. Okay. Are they, are they adult children or are they still in their teens? Adult 25 and 26. Okay. So, so what did they think of dad's job as it were? You know, it's, it's all they've ever known. And so they don't think anything of it. They just know that I'm out in the garden all the time. My life is gardening.
57:31
My crew is here all the time and it's just their extended family. And other than that, I'm just dad. I am, I am, you know, the guy dealing with the dog throw up and, you know, I'm just that I'm the same as everybody else to them and that, and I am, but I think the, the, if nothing else came of it from how my, my girls think of me, I, I, I do think they recognize that I. They see.
58:01
They see that I am recognized a lot because they're with me when other people, you know, so they see it and, and, and to them, I guess it's, it's kind of cool. Or they think a lot of it. And I, I kind of don't, I just kind of shrug it off. And I'm, like I said, I'm, I'm thankful for it. But my point in telling you that is that, um, I'm glad that they don't think that I'm, you know, anything special in that regard, I, I, I want them to think I'm special to them because of how I treat them, of course, but, um,
58:31
The neat story that I'll always remember. And if nothing else ever happens, it would be hard to top this. But when my youngest daughter, who at the time was, um, you know, one and a half or two, I mean, barely able to speak, but on that Saturday morning, when you prop your little kids down in front of a PBS for Teletubbies or what Sesame street or whatever's on that they like to watch at that time, you know, it was a chance for me to.
59:01
pop out around the corner into the garden and I'm sure my wife was home. But anyway, she's watching television on a Saturday morning and it's PBS. And, um, I'm out in the backyard. And then, and the next thing that came on after whatever she was watching was one of my shows. And so she's not old enough to know that I'm on television, but she sees her dad on the TV screen, but she looks outside and she sees me working out in the yard.
59:30
not get her head around what is happening. So she, she comes out to the door and she opens it up and she's trying to tell me what she's seeing and she's pointing to the TV, but looking at me and pointing back to the TV and she just can't figure it out. And I walked in and I realized what was going on and it was just, I guess it's one of those moments where you had to be there, but it was priceless. And the fact that she just couldn't quite get her head around that for the longest time tickled me to death and I'll never forget it, but
59:58
I don't know. I'm not sure the tie into what you were saying, but, um, that is super cute. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm just, they take me in stride and that's good enough for me. Okay. Well, the reason I asked you is because my, my dad is a very outgoing, very personal man and has been the entire time I have been in his life. And I can remember going places and people
01:00:28
that I had never met before would be like, hey, Cal, how you doing across the room? No idea he was going to see them, nothing. My dad was in the medical field. He used to repair all the machines that keep people alive. And he lived in Maine, still lives in Maine. He's never gonna not live in Maine. And so all these people that he would meet at the hospitals that he worked at, at the conferences he would go to,
01:00:58
He would just run into them or they would run into him in public. And my dad was terrible about introducing me or my sister or my brother to these people who came up to talk to him. They would just have their conversation. You'd be standing there like, you know, bookends and no idea who these people were. And I was with my dad when I was about 18, I think.
01:01:26
And we were somewhere and some person said, hey, Cal, how you doing? And I was like, oh, here we go again. The person walked over, shook my dad's hand. How you been? How come you haven't been at, da da da. And I'm standing there feeling like a fifth wheel. And the guy says, so who is this lovely young lady? Not realizing that I was dad's daughter. And my dad said, oh, this is my daughter, Lynn. My name's Lynn. And Lynn, this is so and so.
01:01:55
And I just felt so weird about the fact that my dad was so quote unquote, popular in his world. And I finally said to him, I said, why do you never introduce us kids to the people that come up to you? And he said, because it's not relevant.
01:02:14
I said, we're not relevant. He said, no, they're not relevant to you. And that changed my whole perspective because he's right. None of those people were relevant to my world. And so I feel like maybe, maybe it's just the flipping, the first perception and perspective on it. Perhaps I hadn't thought about it. Because a lot of the people that that will recognize you aren't
01:02:42
relevant at all to your daughter's lives.
01:02:47
Yeah, yeah. Interesting perspective. Yeah, and I was always offended because my dad didn't introduce me. And when he finally said it that way, I was like, oh, I now I understand. Okay, that makes sense. So I don't know, maybe that's a thing for you to ponder in your role today.
01:03:08
All right, Joe, I can't tell you what a pleasure it has been to chat with you and learn about your life and your passions for gardening. Thank you so much. You're so welcome. It was a fun conversation and you're, you're doing great. And, um, thank you for putting me on your list of people that you wanted to connect with. Oh, absolutely. I have more. I haven't reached out to anybody yet, but I have more. It's going to be fun. Yeah.
01:03:37
Get that momentum going and keep them in your, on your calendar. So you've got a consistent, uh, backlog of people that you've, you're ready to roll out there on the next, uh, next episode. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. For sure. I have, I have like 15 episodes or recordings, I guess, backlogged right now that I need to get up next two weeks, but I have, I'm trying to pepper this with things that educate people who are already doing the thing.
01:04:07
And people like you and Joel and people like you and Joel. Um, and then just the average everyday doer who's, who's doing the thing. And I think, I think it's a really good combination. So I don't know who's next on the level of you and Joel, but I'm going to find somebody. We'll see what happens. They're all over the place. You'll find them. Yep. Absolutely. All right. Thanks, Joe. Have a good night. You're welcome.
01:04:37
You too. Bye.
