The 11th Hour With Stephanie Ruhle : MSNBCW : May 15, 2024 11:00pm-12:00am PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

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best selling author louis russert gets tonight last word, the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. tonight, my exclusive interview with senator mitt romney. >> my wing of the party is like a chicken wing. >> what else he said about the republican party, it's presumptive nominees, multiple criminal cases, and the biggest threats facing our country right now. plus, the stage is set for not one but two presidential debates, how both candidates are already taunting one another, and what it could mean for the high-stakes 2024 race, as the 11th hour gets underway on this wednesday night. good evening once again, i am stephanie ruhle, back in new york city and we are now 174 days away from the election. this morning president biden

came out swinging, state of the union style. he challenged donald trump to not one, but two presidential debates while also taunting him about his new york criminal trial. from agreed immediately and asked for more debates, our own peter alexander has more. >> tonight, the stage is set for the first tb convert confrontation in more than three years. the agreement punctuating a dizzying day of dealmaking. the president posting this video responding to weeks of pressure from mr. trump for debate. >> donald trump lost two debates to me in 2020, since then he hasn't shown up for debate, now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. make my day. >> reporter: the president taunting him that's kept them in court four days a week. >> let's pick the dates, donald. i hear you're free on wednesdays. >> there are traditionally three debates, the president offering two, mr. trump who refused all of the primary debates quickly saying yes and

pushing for more, writing, i'm ready and willing to debate crooked joe, i would strongly recommend more than two debates and for excitement purposes a very large venue. just tell me when, i'll be there. within hours a pair of debate dates were set, one in late june and another in september. >> meanwhile, this all comes the same day we got good news about the economy. all three major u.s. stock indices, closed at record highs, and if you're saying the market is not the economy, i got a good news. this came after the latest government data show that inflation which is plaguing all of us slowed down in the month of april. with that, let's get smarter with our leadoff panel tonight. special correspondent for vanity fair and an msnbc contributor, peter baker joins us. chief white house correspondent for the new york times. what do we know about why biden's campaign made this move

now, and why a debate in june 3 months earlier than usual. >> a few months earlier than usual, we will have a debate for the first time in a presidential year before either of the nominees are actually nominees. we're not going to have the conventions until later this summer, this is something we've never seen before, traditionally, it's the candidate who is weakest to watch the debate. both candidates, wanted the debate because both of them are weak in their own ways. neither of them has cracked 50%, neither has a lead above the margin of error and both of them have a desire to change the subject. for trump, changing the suspect after his hush money trial by the time the debate happens he may be a convicted felon and he loved to talk about anything other than that. provide and he loved to talk about anything but his weakness in the polls the fact that he's not beating the guy who made, he like to get on stage with him and show that he can make this debate not a referendum on joe biden but a referendum on

donald trump. >> molly, what's your take? president bryden going dark brandon, making the video saying, i hear you're free wednesday, the only day he's not in court, make my day. what you think of the strategy? >> i often think that works for him, the bravado. the big loser here is the commission on presidential debates. because they have hosted debates for a long time. and that's the precedent, now, what i heard from biden camp they also told politico was that they felt that the commission on presidential debates was unable to keep trump from talking over biden. that they didn't mute his mike, that they were not able to enforce the rules. i think they are hoping that a news venue will be able to enforce the rules with donald trump, we have seen that many places have trouble enforcing the rules when it comes to donald trump.

but we'll see. >> you've led me to the next question perfectly. i want to remind people of what the 2020 showdowns looks like. and why it's important that we need to have rules, watch this. >> i'm not here to callout his lies, everybody knows he's a liar. i just want to make sure, i want to make sure. i, god, i want to make sure >> mr. president, can you let them finish? >> he doesn't know how to do that. we have a higher deficit, we have the highest trade deficit, >> china aid your lunch, joe. >> mr. president, your campaign agreed to both sides would get two minute answers uninterrupted. your side agreed to it, why don't you observe what your campaign agreed to as a ground rule, okay? >> he never keeps his word. >> that was a rhetorical question. >> you mean the laptop is now a run another russia, russia, russia hoax?

>> that's exactly. >> that's exactly, >> gentlemen, i want to say on the issue of race. >> here we go again with russia. >> we're going to continue. >> i'm not going to ask the question because the question is, would you shut up, man? >> gentlemen? >> this is so unpresidential. >> for those of you who are old enough to remember, take me away. there are people looking at that saying what are we going to learn? we already know everything there is to know about these candidates. why are those people wrong? what are these things going to look like? >> you're right to point out that this is the first campaign we've had in our lifetime where the candidates are universally known in a way that we've never seen before. in the past when you've had an incumbent president running, it was the job of the incumbent to define the challenger before he could divine himself, that's

not happening here. we know who these guys are. the real test is for each of them to make it about the other candidates. americans have shown they're not thrilled with this choice, they're not thrilled with either of their candidates. democrats aren't thrilled with biden, republicans aren't filled with trump, each of them needs to say to the voters, you may not like me but that other guy on stage sitting next to me right now, he is a disaster for the country. that's the challenge, how do you make it a referendum about the other guy rather than yourself you mark >> what does trump think he's going to get out of this? debates are about policy. donald trump does not talk policy. he likes to do rallies, with a teleprompter, with a loving fan base. >> donald trump love's performance. he thinks that this, more performance, even in the tweets or whatever it is, whatever social media platform he uses to communicate, he said that he

wanted to have more of them, wanted to have a bigger venue. he's a performer, he tends to think that whatever he does, as long as it's a performance, helps him. we got into this whole candidate trump versus defendant trump situation where he felt that giving little talks before he goes into the trial is somehow helpful to him. i don't necessarily think it's true but it does play well with his base, and that's all, trump has only ever cared about his base which is why he's been unable to grow the electorate. >> for a long time we thought we were getting done, now we're getting two, what are the chances we're going to get another one added, closer to the election day when traditionally we see the debates? >> we should be careful to assume we're getting two. it's very possible something blows up between now and june 27th. a fight over the rules, trump may say he wants a debate but

maybe he changes his mind and said i don't like the moderators or the rules they've imposed and he decides to blow it up. he's done that before. he did not debate, as you pointed out, during the primaries, not even a single time. it's not 100% sure we get these two but it's possible we get another one after that, what's interesting is they're doing them so early because the election starts early. the second one, the last one, is now scheduled for september 10th. that's right around the time the voting actually begins, early in person voting begins earlier than we had, election day isn't an election to anymore, it's an election several weeks and in effect they're moving up the debate schedule because the voting is moving up as well. >> all right, thank you so much, he brings up a good point. who knows if there will be a debate. this is the same guy who wants to testify. that ain't happening, thank you both for starting us off. when we come back, my exclusive keynote conversation with

republican senator mitt romney. we get into his farewell from congress, the dysfunction in the gop, the november election, and a lot more. you do not want to miss it. the 11th hour, a very special edition just getting underway on a wednesday night. sday nigh

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>> the world has changed a lot since and mitt romney ran for president 12 years ago.

with his final year in the united states and it almost be fought behind him, he's ready to talk about all of it. i sat down with senator romney for an exclusive keynote conversation about his final year in congress, and his thoughts on what comes next for our country. watch this. >> you only have a few months left in this position, not a lot of time to get stuff done but there is still a host of issues plaguing our country, what are the things you're most worried about? >> a lot of politicians spend their time talking about things that sound good to the folks back home but have no impact on the future of the country. but, the big things that we have to be dealing with, the amount of debt we have, it's getting to be a problem, the emergence of china as a great powder, if not the great power, the climate, we talk about things, that won't actually deal with the climate, and the

big one, artificial intelligent, a.i. is changing the world. it's as big a destructor of nuclear power was. how are we going to deal with it? these are things we are finally going to if the future is as bright for our kids as it has been for us. >> the only way we do that is to work together. you are leaving congress along with another of colleagues who are known for creating bipartisan solutions. but right now, rising prominent voices even on the right are condemning working together. isn't working together what you're supposed to do? why has it become a bad thing? >> given the way that government works in order for someone to become law, requires republicans and democrats to agree. that's, that's to become law, it's like, well, that's not going to solve the deficit if

we don't create law. we're not going to fix the border if we don't have law, we're not going to deal with the changes of that climate, all these things have to have people work together. i know it's nice to go back home, fire up the base and get everybody to say, he's a real fighter, but if that fighter isn't willing to work with people across the aisle, that fighter isn't going to get anything done and there are too many people today who don't recognize we need to do some things right now, because not doing something could end up being perilous down the road. >> president biden ran as a bipartisan president, he's worked with you on a number of things and gotten a lot done, infrastructure, the chips act, lower healthcare costs. the list goes on, but the country remains polarized and getting more divided. if he were to have a second term, do you think there is something he could do to actually bring people back together? because he's got a lot of

policies under his belt that he's done for the country and worked with you. >> the way to bring people together is not just to give a good speech. nice as that is. the way to get people together is to tell them the truth. to let them know what the challenges are that you're concerned about and how you're going to deal with them. >> president biden isn't just getting a good speech, infrastructure law is now the law, the chips act is bringing jobs back, bringing manufacturing back. those aren't speeches. >> there is no question that president biden accomplished a number of things. but in politics very few people care about what you've done. they care about what you're going to do. and right now there are a couple of things that are very much on people's minds. the fact that things cost more than they did before. inflation is still there. people and the prices are going to go down, no, when you beat inflation prices don't go down. they just stabilize and they're getting stabilized but the fact that people are paying more is a concern. and the border.

people have been screaming about the border for all 3 1/2 years joe biden has been president. he's not done anything to solve the problem of the border. that's a huge issue for president trump, i can't understand why president biden didn't tackle this from the beginning. >> what has congress done? it's congress who sets the laws. >> the republicans have put forward our plan, the house put out a border plan, and that's what congress did. the president said that wasn't acceptable, then they began working at a bipartisan basis. but this was not a problem when president trump was president. >> the border has been a problem for years, sir, and a plan was just put together and it was donald trump who is not currently in office who blocked it. >> he blocked the plan in part because he wants to keep this issue hot and alive but don't forget, when he was president he did a lot of things that sounded pretty ugly but we didn't have anywhere near the number of people that have come into the country illegally as we have under president biden, that's something he should have

done everything in his power, frankly, take actions that maybe the courts would have stopped, then he'd have a better argument saying, congress needed to act, but he never did that. as a result the american people are saying, i want something else. >> but it doesn't matter what you did in the past, it matters what happens now, and right now, president biden, with congress, put together something and it was donald trump who blocked it. he can say to the american people here's what i'm doing, now. if donald trump were to be elected, do you think there's anything he would do to bring people together? >> i don't know that that's his ambition, to bring people together. i'm not sure exactly what it is he hopes to do. if he gets a second term. maybe in a second term he'll be thinking less about appealing to the base and may be having a legacy of some kind. i don't know. as we listen to the campaign so far it's basically saying, i won in 2020,, which he didn't, and trying to get other people to say the same thing.

taking on social issues, cultural issues, making a big deal of that. that's what his campaign is focused on, and of course, the border. that's an issue that's worked for him back in 2016, he expected to work for him again, if, i'd be all over that. instead he served as a president trump on a silver platter. >> but of course, now, he is addressing the border and trump is blocking it. i want to tell you about court foreign-policy, you know about it. there now are people in your party who are expressing views that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. when you think about support for ukraine, even the idea that people somehow have similar views of the likes of vladimir putin. what is your take on that, where did it come from? >> it's disorienting. to someone like me it's unimaginable. that in the party of ronald reagan and george w bush and john mccain and others that we

would see a growing isolationism within our party. i think it flows in part from talk tv, talk radio, the tucker carlson of the world. >> never heard of him. >> that say outrageous things and the base says, exactly. so, many in our party have followed that populist streak which is, stop worrying about the rest of the world, just worry about what's going on here. what they're forgetting is that we are connected to the rest of the world, that our economy is connected to the rest of the world, that if we had had that attitude then, germany would've ended up ruling the world. we're involved in the world out of our own self interest and i laugh at the phrase america first. i know it typically means isolationism, but really, america is putting ourselves first when we're involved in the world, when we stop bad people. if vladimir putin goes, not just for ukraine but decides to go into poland, then we're

involved in conflict with our sons and daughters going to war, or we could walk away from nato in which case putin is going to keep on going. how about a world where china and russia control the world, and we have our own island. that's not a world where americans are going to be safe or prosperous. we're safe and prosperous when the world follows the orders that have existed over the last 75 years for the strong nato, strong allies, strong friends and where america stands for something like freedom. >> you were the last republican nominee, and many of your supporters feel a bit homeless. nikki haley just yesterday won 20% of the vote in nebraska and maryland, and she's been out of the race for 10 weeks. what does that say for this faction of your flavor of conservativism? where do those voters go? is this a moment to create a maga movement for your wing of the party? >> my wing of the party is a chicken wing. it doesn't take the bird off

the ground. we're going to have to change that, in my view, i don't know how that's going to play out but there are going to be voices that come forward that i think will be more aligned with the traditional conservative views that i've espoused, that our party has traditionally. we'll see, time will tell. i can't predict. >> but the chicken wing needs a home now, so, you've got a two- party system. >> it's going to have to choose between the two candidates that are there and it's going to do so very reluctantly. why do i think people are not all getting 100% joe biden or 100% behind donald trump? because they're not entirely happy with the two. when you ask people would you rather have trump, biden, or someone else, someone else typically gets the plurality if not the majority. they like something else but that's not the choice they have and as a result, they're going to have to choose between the two. >> what choice will you make? >> i'm not going to be voting for president trump, i made that clear. i know for some people,

character is not the number one issue, it is for me. when someone has been determined by a jury to have committed sexual assault, that's not someone who i want my kids and grandkids to see as president of the united states. >> in the last two elections i believe you wrote in your wife's name. shows a lot of support for her, i get that. but that's not a serious thing to do, and you're a very serious person who's laid out all sorts of risks that we face. do you see yourself writing in a candidate this time? >> my particular boat doesn't have a big impact because i'm from utah. >> is that what you say to voters from note utah? >> what i tell people is you want to choose between one of two people. the people at large on to choose out of one of two. having been the former nominee of the republican party, i want to make sure that i am in a position after the selection to have some influence on the direction of our party in the future. so i'm not going to go out and

do something which would make that more difficult to occur. i think our party has to come back to the basis that has been successful for us in the past. >> there's talk today about a presidential debate, maybe as early as june. i know debates were important to you, they certainly got you a lot of momentum in 2012. do you think they matter today? in many ways we know a lot about the two people running. do you think it will impact boats, maybe your boat? >> the image that comes to mind is those two old guys on the muppets. statler and waldorf, that's what comes to mind. but i think there will be a huge audience for these debates. i think people have very low expectations as to what president biden will do. i think they have much higher expectations about president trump and his competitiveness. >> what are your expectations? >> i sure the public perceptions. we'll see what happens. >> you represent character, you represent integrity. if our country, knowing what they know about donald trump

decides to elect him, what does it say about our national character? >> i'm one of those that believes that character is the single most important thing in selecting the person to lead the nation, that we can survive bad policy but the long-term, we can't be the leader of the world if we're left with bad character. some people disagree with me. they say policy is pretty darn important. what's happening at the border is important, what's happening on tax policy is important, what's happening on inflation is important, if families are having a hard time putting food on the table they might think character is all well and good that i need to pay for my food. people have different priorities, and i respect that. my priority is that character comes first. >> we have much more of my interview with senator romney after the break. when we return, we're talking defendant donald, and why mitt romney thinks president biden should have pardoned donald trump, when the 11th hour continues. continues.

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>> former president donald j trump will return to court tomorrow for day 18 of his criminal trial. of course, i had to ask senator romney about it during our interview, and what he makes of his republican colleagues who paraded themselves outside the manhattan courthouse, watch this. >> 50 years ago, leaders in the republican party walked into the white house and told a criminal president he needed to

step down. this week, leaders in the republican party went up to that trial, stood outside the courthouse and attacked our legal system. how does that make you feel about republicans right now? >> i think it's a terrible fault for our country to see people attacking our legal system, that's an enormous mistake. i think it's also demeaning for people to quite apparently try and run for vice president by donning the red tie and standing outside the courthouse. it's just, i'd have felt awkward were i one of those individuals. but, i can also say i think president biden made an enormous error. he should have fought like crazy to keep this prosecution from going forward. it was a win-win for donald trump. >> is that joe biden's job? shouldn't there be a separation? >> if lbj had been president and he didn't want something like this to happen he'd have been all over the prosecutor saying you better not bring that forward or i'm going to drive you out of office.

>> but i'm pretty sure you support having separate but equal branches of government. >> i do, but you may disagree with this, but had i been resident biden, when the justice department brought indictments i would have immediately pardoned him. i would have pardoned president trump. why? because it makes me, president biden, the big guy, and the person i pardoned the little guy, and number two, it's not going to get resolved before the election. it's not going to have an impact before the election and frankly the country doesn't want to have to go through prosecuting a former president. i think the american people have recognized that president trump did have an inappropriate affair with someone who was a star, they realize that. they realize he took classified documents he shouldn't have and didn't handle them properly, they understand that as well. that they realize he's been lying about the election in 2020. they know those things. these things are not changing the public attitude and frankly we are to get beyond these and focus on the big issues that really matter to the american people. our inflation, our border, what's happening around the

world. america's involvement in the world, and i think president biden and president trump would do best focusing on the future for this great country. >> before we go, one of the most important things is our democracy. democracy held in the last election, in large part because your republican colleagues followed the rule of law. if president trump loses this election, are you concerned that your colleagues won't do the same this time, and will have a different outcome? >> there's no question, but if this election is a narrow win for one side or the other, the side that loses will say it was not a fair election. i don't know how democracy works if people can't trust the elections. if they can't trust americans. >> can you think of an example of a democratic president who tried to hold up the certification of the newly elected republican? >> i'm not enough of a historian. >> i know you know the answer to that, it's no. >> i know there were a number

of senators and congress people that tried to hold up the certification of state electors in the past. so, that had happened before. it was squashed and it was quashed in 2020. i presume it will be again, i hope so. our institutions held, but you can't be 100% confident that they'll hold again. there is no question but that when you have a person running for president who is not willing to say i believe the outcome of an election, that's a threat to democracy. when you weaken our judicial system, when you weaken the fbi, these are things that strike at the heart of democracy, and that's one of the reasons we're fighting as hard as we are to shore up these institutions, tell people the truth about them and hopefully have folks listen to folks like you to understand what's at stake. >> but still, you are an optimist, and you believe in american exceptionalism. why are you so optimistic about our future? >> first of all, extort america is an extraordinarily resilient country. we just had this extraordinary

pandemic and yet our economy is strong, the levels of unemployment, is that because the president is pulling all the livers in the right way? it's not. it's because the american people are fulfilling their dreams. >> the economy is strong. >> yes, the economy is strong. there's no question, the economy is doing well. that's because of the american people. it's not because of the president or the federal reserve. they can mess things up, but the american people, pursuing their dreams, is what makes america work. will we suffer slings and arrows? will the, the other side? absolutely. >> senator, it was an honor and a privilege to speak to you this morning, i appreciate it. >> thank you, stephanie. >> let's bring in two gentlemen who know senator romney even more than i do, a staff writer for the atlantic and msnbc political contributor, but he is also the author of romney, a

reckoning, and stuart stevens, a veteran of the mitt romney and george w. bush presidential campaigns, he is now with the lincoln project. stuart, as somebody who worked very closely with senator romney, what stood out to you from our conversation? >> i thought it was a great interview. i wish he had been elected president, he would have been a great president. but he's moved on from that, he's focused on the future. look, what can i say? i agree completely, this is a race that should be determined by character. and the republican nominee has no character, has terrible character. i think nothing else matters much in this election. it's such a stark contrast, and mitt romney, it's fascinating to me that a party can nominate mitt romney, and four years later nominate donald trump. in the history of america has there ever been such a change in choice by a party? i don't think so. i think what it says is not flattering about the republican

party. >> what stood out to you? >> the thing that stood out to me in your conversation is one that stood out to me in a lot of my conversations while working on the book, which is almost his quaint and deeply unfashionable view of how washington should work. right? he talked in your interview about how there is no way to get laws passed without the two parties agreeing to work together. and that sounds almost trite. it's something we all acknowledge on the surface, but, you try to do it, and even very obvious ways, and there's just enormous pushback from the activist bases of both parties. you look at the people who are leaving congress, leaving the senate, this year, and they're overwhelmingly people who have tried to work together with the other side, and have gotten primary, who have faced serious backlash from the extreme parts

of their parties, and it's sad, i think, in some ways that the things that mitt romney was telling you about how the senate should function, how washington should function, seem so radical at this moment. >> but let's talk about the future, because while he said this is about character, it's why he's not going to vote for donald trump, he did not endorse president biden. and in the past he's said he's going to write his wife's name in, blah blah blah. that's a very unserious thing to do at a serious time. what was interesting is, he explained he is not going to tell the american people who he's voting for, because he doesn't want to lose future influence he has over his party. what does that tell you about what he wants to do next? >> i think he wants to try to save the republican party because america needs a center- right party. right now, there is a deep hollowness at the center of that party. mitt romney is an interesting

historical figure, he was the first senator ever to vote to impeach a member of his own party. that's pretty extraordinary when you think about it and, had the party followed romney when he came out, almost eight years ago to the day and spoke out about donald trump, i think this country would have been in a lot better shape. it clearly would have been better to elect hillary clinton and donald trump. ask all the dead ukrainians. and then someone who spent most of my life pointing out flaws in the democratic party. but it was a terrible direction that the party took, and i'll just say, worth pointing out, here, donald trump has never gotten north of 47%. 46.2, 46.9. romney lost at 47.2%, so the idea that there is some giants well of support for donald trump in the body i think, within the party, it's true, but within the country, no. i think the donald trump is

shrinking the party, you saw in iowa, 37% of the party, now, is female. it's amazing what he's doing to the party, and something has to change. i think it's going to be a long time until the republican party can return to any sort of sane center. but that's a party i would hope mitt romney would play a role in leading. >> do you think senator romney is understating things when i talk about his brand of conservativism? and he says, his wing of the party is the size of a chicken wing. he doesn't really believe that. what was it, two nights ago, nikki haley is still getting 20% of the vote in nebraska and maryland. do you think of the likes of mitt romney and others are potentially working with nikki haley to create their own movement? maga wasn't the whole party to begin with, it started as a movement within the party. could mitt romney be trying to develop that, again, with his

wing? what he calls the chicken wing? >> the chicken wing movement of the party? it's a good question. i remember when i was finishing my book, this was about a year ago, every time i would go to his house he had some kind of new scheme that he was working on to influence the 2024 election, or to try to bring people back to the center, he considered himself running an independent presidential this year, a cathartic primal scream of a campaign where he could say what he actually believed, rather than what focus groups and polls told him to do. i don't know what he'll do in the future. i really don't. i will say i disagree with you that he definitely won't share who he votes for, i think it's a possibility that he will end up making an endorsem*nt, i think time will tell. but i do think that you're right, stephanie, that the mitt

romney wing of the republican party, what he represents, it's not clearly the majority of the party, but it's not a minuscule fraction. right? a lot of people who have voted for mitt romney, voted for john mccain, voted for george w. bush, are currently identifying as independents or even democrats because they've been pushed out of the trump era gop. those people could be brought back into the tent if the party were to return to some semblance of a healthy, serious political party. i think that's what mitt romney is hoping for. >> i don't think he's going to tell us who he's voting for, but i don't think he's going to write his wife's name in again. i think there's too much at stake. thank you both for joining us. stuart, i know you helped me get ready for that interview, thank you for that. and you at home, you can check my full extended interview if that wasn't enough for you, with senator romney on our youtube page, go to

msnbc.com/stephanie. when we return, the war in gaza fired up students on college campuses across the country, but it led to encampments and clashes, serious ones, with police. why our next guest, a special guest, thinks those actions may be hurting more than they're helping palestinians. we'll have that when the 11th hour continues. hour continues.

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college campuses nationwide since protests over the war in gaza began. in a piece from the new york times, nicholas kristof writes this. student protesters, i admire your empathy for gazans, your concern for the world, your moral ambition to make a difference. but, i worry about how peaceful protests have tipped into occupations of buildings, risks to commencement's and what i see as undue tolerance of anti- semitism, chaos, vandalism, and extremism. i'm afraid the more aggressive actions may be hurting the gazans that you're trying to help. here to discuss, the man himself, pulitzer prize-winning new york times columnist and author of the new must-read book chasing hope. a reporters life. congratulations on this book, i want to start with that new york times piece, because you say that the vietnam war protests in the 1960s have shaped your thinking on this issue. what do you want us to remember from that time? >> so, the vietnam protests were fundamentally right on the

merits, they were right that the war was immoral, in my view, and that we should have gotten out of that. and yet, although they were right on the merits, the way they protested ended up probably, electing richard nixon in 1968, over hubert humphrey, and that dragged the war on for years meant more americans dying and more vietnamese dying. >> and what you think is the best way for these students to bring change now? >> that's really hard. i wish i had a good solution. i'm frustrated, too, i deeply believe that what is going on in gaza is a horrendous tragedy, perpetuated with american weapons and american support. and, i suggested that the students do things like write letters to the editor, and i'm sure they just rolled their eyes. >> i'm rolling my eyes. write letters to your congressperson.

brother, please. >> but at least that doesn't create a negative affect, and right now, >> and it doesn't bring about change. >> it doesn't bring about beneficial change, perhaps, it doesn't bring about harmful change either. >> so it does nothing. >> right now, we're not talking about gazans starving to death, we're not talking about rafah being invaded, we're talking about campus protests. the protests have diverted attention from the people where the focus needs to be. >> what do you think, what grade would you give president biden on his handling of this war? >> i wish i could give him a better grade. i admire biden, i think he knows foreign policy pretty well but i think he got snickered. i think he thought the war would end a lot earlier, i think by the end of the year i think he thought he could restrain benjamin netanyahu with a bear hug, and those were untrue, and i think he just didn't imagine that israel

would level an entire neighborhoods, that would block humanitarian aid and cause starvation. >> in your book you talk about bringing attention to dangerous regimes, groups that are violating human rights. what do you see today as the most dangerous threat to the world right now. >> there are so many all around. maybe the biggest nightmare i worry about is a crisis involving china that escalates, either in the south china sea or east china sea, and escalates out of control. i think that might be more likely to lead to a nuclear confrontation actually then russia and ukraine. i think it's quite unlikely that possible. >> what is the most important, the biggest thing you've learned over your 40 years reporting? >> you're aging me. so, it's actually a little counterintuitive. i spent my career covering war and genocide and poverty and disease.

>> most difficult things. >> but i've emerged reasonably hopeful about humanity, it's pretty odd to come from covering genocide to feel pretty good, but the truth is that i have seen tremendous progress over that period, and i've also seen that side by side with the worst of humanity you encounter just the very best. it reminds, my optimism, it's not the gui, everything's going to work out fine, but it is a sense that we have the capacity, as humans, to tackle these challenges if we're not paralyzed by despair and gloom. >> do we not do enough talking about celebrating the best of humanity? when you think about what we consume every day, it's that mass despair, not that excellence. >> i think that we in the media, we cover planes that crashed, not planes that land. that gives, potentially, this misperception that planes are crashing all the time. i do think that we in the news

business are focused, we feed that despair and i do think that that can be paralyzing. i think we need to bring into it, as well, some notion of this backdrop of progress which i think is important. >> i do, too. congratulations on your book, it is always great to see. a truly extraordinary reporter. we'll be back after a quick break. break. [sfx] water lapping.

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